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Mekkora felelőssége volt az angolszász erőknek a magyar Holokausztban? Tényleg egy könnyedebb D-napi partraszállásért kellett meghalnia 600 000 magyarországi zsidónak?

Figyelt kérdés

Akkor már szövetségesek tudták tapasztalatból is, hogy egy adott ország megszállása azonnal a zsidók deportáláshoz fog vezetni, és onnan a haláltáborokba. AZ USA és UK elvárta Horthytól a kiugrást, sőt hogy üzenjen hadat korábbi szövetségesének Németországnak, annak ellenére hogy tudta az ellenállás azonnali német megszállással jár, ami deportálásokhoz vezet... A német megszállás komolyabb csapatkivonásokat tesz szükségessé a nyugati, azaz Francia területekről, mivel a keleti front öldöklő haláltusájában minden katonára szüksége volt a náci birodalomnak.


Tervük részben be is jött, de az angolszászok által várt 200 000 helyett csak 100 000 német katonát vezényeltek É-Franciaországból Magyarország elfoglalására.



#holokauszt #D-Day #normandiai partraszállás #600 000 #Angolszász erők #feláldozható emberek
2022. dec. 18. 15:56
1 2 3 4
 1/38 A kérdező kommentje:
Any idea?
2022. dec. 18. 18:18
 2/38 anonim ***** válasza:
3%
Ennél rosszabb a helyzet.. Ma már lehet tudni hogy az angol titkosszolgálat direkt juttatott információkat a németeknek a kiugrási kísérletről, tehát ők hiúsították meg...
2022. dec. 18. 18:29
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 3/38 A kérdező kommentje:

The Third Reich, the ruler of Europe, could not get any Jews from Hungary, because Horthy told Hitler eye to eye, that he could not give out Hungarian citizens. - US planned and provoked the German occupation of Hungary to keep far 100 000 German soldiers from the planned Landing at Normandy. Thus the US planned and caused the holocaust of the Hungarian Jews.


THE BODYGUARD OPERATION, OPERATION SPARROW


You should read the book of a Hungarian historian, Borhi László - In the Web of Great Power Interests - US-Hungary Relations from World War II to Regime Change /Nagyhatalmi érdekek hálójában - Az Egyesült Államok és Magyarország kapcsolata a második világháborútól a rendszerváltásig . It is in Hungarian only, thus I will translate little parts of it. It is about “BODYGUARD OPERATION”. On April 18, 1943, the Germans summarized their objections in a note, indirectly quoting the words of Prime Minister Kállay to Albert Szent-Györgyi, who “visited the Hungarian Prime Minister before his departure, asking him to inform the American ambassador to Turkey that he, the Prime Minister makes no additional soldiers or weapons available to the German Empire and, although he speaks incessantly against the Jews, he does nothing against them and protects 70,000 Jewish refugees in Hungary, but cannot pursue any other policy at this time, otherwise the Germans will occupy Hungary, and all Jews will be exterminated. ”- The Anglo-Saxons knew all the consequences in advance, anticipating the extermination of about one million Hungarians of Jewish descent.


In the autumn of 1943, secret military negotiations began between Hungarian and American envoys in Turkey, the details of which were probably known to the Germans from several sources. As a result of these discussions, the Sparrow Mission, a group of three American officers, arrived in Hungary. The details appear, the Americans appear to have come only to secure Hungarian intelligence cooperation against the Germans, and the head of the mission, Florimond Duke, later concluded that their mission was to provoke German invasion. baseless. "


"The extent to which the Germans were aware of the Hungarian peace searches, despite the fact that Albert Szent-Györgyi was not a diplomat and went out to initiate negotiations of his own volition, is illustrated by the following case, which shows how much they lacked discretion. 1943 In March, Turkish newspapers published a report from Eduard Beneš from London.101 In this speech, Beneš pointed out that Hungarians, through two professors (ie Gyula Mészáros and Albert Szent-Györgyi), were seeking contacts with the Allies.102 Beneš's speech was reported by Reuters. The Turkish newspapers later published the Hungarian refutation. "


"The infinitely evil Czech fascist, Benes, (the nominated of GB) did everything against us."


"The Anglo-Saxons just needed a sacrificial lamb."


"The result of this operation was also that the Germans did not believe in the real place of the Normandy landing even when it was already in full force. It was also due to this complex deception that Hitler was expecting a serious attack from the south: the Anglo-Saxons although the attack through Slovenia had long been rejected, Hitler still believed in the offensive through the Ljubljana gap and in the landing of the 7th U.S. Army by the Patton 7th Trieste in Colombia, Borhi says, according to documents, the British and American we were pressured specifically to jump out for the Germans to invade. It was anticipated that the Germans would occupy us, but the occupation in military terms would be so costly for the Third Reich that the Allies would still do well. "


"But the decision-makers didn't care much about the anxious voices. When one of the Hungarian diplomats tried to explain the consequences of the German occupation to Allied representatives, Allen Dulles, who later had a great career as CIA director in the Cold War, replied supposedly: There is war a few hundred thousand lives no longer matter here or there.The direct cause of the German occupation is still unknown today.Probably the Sparrow Mission was the last straw in the Germans.On March 15, 1944, American paratroopers led by Colonel Duke were dropped in Hungary. Hitler was furious because of the bold action, and the participants in the deployment were surprisingly not given precise information about their mission in Hungary.


"The Allies had ulterior motives and their policies were contrary to the fundamental national interests of the Central and Eastern European states," Borhi emphasizes. They have plunged into a policy that has been doomed to failure, similar to what Radio Free Europe will encourage Hungarians in 1956. America knows exactly that it cannot help against Soviet tanks, and there was no significant military advantage in the end of the German occupation of Hungary. the Anglo-Saxons risked the lives of countless people in Hungary. "


"The real tragedy, however, came from the fact that American policy against German minions changed over time, and from the end of 1943 they were explicitly encouraged to confront the Third Reich, even though they knew there was no chance of doing so. The turn came after the late summer of 1943 The small Eastern Eastern countries, which until then were only of secondary importance to America, were valued, but only as sacrificial puppets. The Allies subjected their policy towards German allies, including Hungary, to winning the war and maintaining a grand coalition with the Russians. "



"The essence of the Anglo-Saxon strategy was to encourage the German ally Hungary and Romania to resist as much as possible, thus provoking German occupation and thus tying up as many German corps as possible, weakening the Third Reich forces at the planned Normandy landing. All this called Bodyguard. it fit into a deceptive operation: the aim was for the Germans to deploy a larger force in areas where they would not interfere with the Allies' essential military operations. "


To ensure Horthy's compliance, Hitler ordered Colonel Otto

Skorzeny to kidnap Horthy's son and hold him as a hostage.


At the time the orders were issued in Berlin to execute Margarethe I (as

the plan for the invasion and occupation of Hungary was called), insufficient

German troops were available. The forces in the West were depleted. Troops

that were supposed to have been sent to reinforce defenses in France against

the anticipated invasion had been diverted to the Anzio battle in Italy. Other

German forces were greatly overextended in Russia and the Balkans (the latter,

in anticipation of the Allied landings along the Adriatic.) Nevertheless, to

execute Margarethe, further forces were withdrawn from these areas. Two

divisions, for example, were removed from France and were not returned in

time to be employed against the Normandy landings. German High Command

Operations Chief, General Walther Warlimont, recalled after the war that

"During the Hungarian operation, the Western front was left without a single

battle-worthy, fully operational armored division at a moment when the

invasion might come any day." Thus, Operation Sparrow triggered an

unnecessary German invasion of Hungary with over 100,000 troops, including

several armored divisions, that were desperately needed elsewhere.


Full text of "Declassified Articles from the CIA Journal "Studies in Intelligence""

[link]


Do not forget, that Switzerland and Czechoslovakia gave back all the Jewish refugees to Hitler, GB did not let any Jews to migrate to Madagascar, where Hitler wanted to transport them, the US did not let to dock the ships with Jewish refigees! But Hungary of Horthy let in and let to live in Hungary 70 000 foreign Jews beside the ca.900 000 own Hungarian Jews!


6. Horthy commanded to save 2 Jewish wonder-rabbi from the occupied Poland in 1943!


During the war Hitler continously demanded from the Governor at every trial the extradition of Hungarians qualified as Jews, but he sternly rejected this, saying that he would not extradite Hungarian citizens. (Foreign Jews could escape to Hungary, while Switzerland and Czechoslovakia gave back all fugitive Jews to Hitler.)


Miklós Horthy, who is set up by the inferior Bolshevik propaganda as anti-Semitic, has organized the rescue of two Polish Miracle Rabbis! In mid-1943, at Horthy's personal request, Újszászy organized the rescue of the Miracle Rabbi of Belz, Áhááron Rokéách and his brother, Mordechai from Poland under German occupation,, where they were hiding in the Bochni ghetto. They were at the forefront of the Gestapo circular list. Eight months after their arrival, they were hiding until January 1944, and the two fugitives left the country with the necessary documents on the Orient Express via Romania to Turkey.



After the Soviet Bagratyon operation started and pressed Wermacht back, and needed most of the German occupation army, Horthy organized the rescue of the Jews of Budapest, ca. 250–300 000 humans! He had a secret tank regiment in the Pilis mountain with a training task to hide it from the Germans. Suddenly he commanded the change of the goverment, the German friend Nazis for faithful Hungarians, commanded the tank regiment to enclose Budapest, and commanded the Nazi friend gendarme regiments, which were collected to Budapest to make the deportation of the Jews by the previous Nazi friend government, and commanded to leave the capital in 24 hours, otherwise they would be shot by the tank regiment and other faithful regiments of Horthy. The gendarme army left Budapest, and most of the Jews of it were saved. Horthy saved far more Jews, than anybody till back to Abraham!


8. How many Jews were saved by Churchill, Stalin or Roosevelt? Zero!

2022. dec. 18. 19:07
 4/38 anonim ***** válasza:
36%

A szövetségeseknek nem az volt a céljuk, hogy megmentsék a zsidókat, hanem az, hogy megnyerjék a háborút.

Ettől függetlenül a németeknek nem volt kötelező deportálni és táborokba hurcolni a zsidókat, illetve az erről szóló híreket a szövetséges hadvezetésben sokan a németellenes propaganda számlájára írták és nem voltak annak valóságosságáról meggyőződve.

Churchillnek volt egyébként szándéka a Balkánon frontot nyitni, de ez is inkább a háború hamarabbi befejezését célozta volna, illetve az volt a politikai célja, hogy a szovjetek terjeszkedését lokalizálja, ne engedje őket közép és nyugat-európai területekre, de erre nem volt elegendő katonai erő, így Teheránban Sztálin és Roosevelt 2:1 arányban leszavazta a normandiai partraszállás ellenében, így attól kezdve csupán annak sikeres kivitelezése foglalkoztatta őket, arra nem volt ráhatásuk, hogy a nácik miket tesznek.

Korábban mind a románok, mind mi mereven elutasítottuk a háborúból való kilépés gondolatát, így erre a brit-amerikai hadvezetés nem is építhetett. Az más kérdés, hogy a Ploestiért folyó szovjet páncélos offenzívának kapóra jött a románok átállása és ezt jól ki is tudták használni, ellenben hazánk esetében a németek gyorsan reagáltak, így ekkor már lehetetlenné vált Magyarország kiugrása, erre semmi támogatást nem nyújthattak az angolszászok.

Ezt egy évvel korábban kellett volna Horthynak letárgyalni, mert 43 végén Teheránban döntötték el a háború irányának menetét és ekkor még a magyar vezetés erősen a németek oldalán állt.

A zsidókért a szövetségesek nem tehettek semmit.

2022. dec. 21. 16:15
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 5/38 A kérdező kommentje:

Tévedés. A szövetségesek nagyon is jól tudták Auschwitzi láger pontos célját:


[link]


During the spring of 1944, the Allies received more explicit information about the process of mass murder by gassing carried out at Auschwitz-Birkenau. On some days as many as 10,000 people were murdered in its gas chambers. In desperation, Jewish organizations made various proposals to halt the extermination process and rescue Europe's remaining Jews. A few Jewish leaders called for the bombing of the Auschwitz gas chambers

2022. dec. 21. 17:00
 6/38 A kérdező kommentje:

[link]


The Polish government-in-exile in London first reported crimes in the Auschwitz complex to the western public in 1941.[2] Information about tortures inside this camp was published in the same year in New York in a government report from occupied Poland titled The Polish White Book.[2] The Auschwitz camp was also noted in The Black Book of Poland, a 750-page report published in 1942 in New York by the Ministry of Information of the Polish government-in-exile describing atrocities committed by Germany in occupied Poland in twenty-two months between the invasion of Poland in September 1939, and the end of June 1941. Both were printed in New York by The Greystone Press and G. P. Putnam's Sons.[2][3]


In 1942, Lieutenant Jan Karski reported to the Polish, British and U.S. governments on the situation in occupied Poland, especially the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto and the general systematic extermination of the Poles and Jews nationally. He did not know about the murder by gas, repeating the common belief at the time that deported Jews were being exterminated with electricity.[4] Karski met with the Polish government-in-exile, including the Prime Minister, Władysław Sikorski, as well as with members of political parties such as the Socialist Party, National Party, Labor Party, People's Party, Jewish Labour Bund and Zionist Party. He also spoke to Anthony Eden, the British Foreign Secretary, and included a detailed statement on what he had seen in Warsaw and in Bełżec. In 1943 in London he met the author and journalist Arthur Koestler. He then traveled to the United States and reported to President Franklin D. Roosevelt. FDR reacted to Karski's report by inquiring jokingly into animal rights abuses (specifically, horses). His report was a major source of information for the Allies.[5]


The Polish Government—as the representatives of the legitimate authority on territories in which the Germans are carrying out the systematic extermination of Polish citizens and of citizens of Jewish origin of many other European countries—consider it their duty to address themselves to the Governments of the United Nations, in the confident belief that they will share their opinion as to the necessity not only of condemning the crimes committed by the Germans and punishing the criminals, but also of finding means offering the hope that Germany might be effectively restrained from continuing to apply her methods of mass extermination.

— Edward Bernard Raczyński (1891–1993) Note to United Nations, December 10, 1942.[6]


Karski met also with many other government and civic leaders in the United States, including Felix Frankfurter, Cordell Hull, William Joseph Donovan, and Stephen Wise. Karski presented his report to media, to bishops of various denominations (including Cardinal Samuel Stritch), to members of the Hollywood film industry and artists, but without success. Many of those he spoke to did not believe him, or judged his testimony much exaggerated or saw it as propaganda from the Polish government in exile.[7]

Main article: Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations

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Jews on selection ramp at Auschwitz, May 1944

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In 1942, members of the Polish government in exile launched an official protest against systematic murders of Poles and Jews in occupied Poland, based on Karski's report. The Poles addressed their protest to the 26 Allies who had signed the Declaration by United Nations on January 1, 1942.[8][9]


In response, the Allied Powers issued an official statement on December 17, 1942, condemning the known German atrocities.[8] The statement was read to the British House of Commons in a debate led by the Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden, and published on the front page of The New York Times[10] and by many other newspapers such as The Times.[11] At the end of the debate the House of Commons stood for a minute in silence, a custom reserved for the death of the Monarch, and therefore a sign that the British establishment was united in expecting retribution.[12] Eden commented that:


Jews are being transported, in conditions of appalling horror and brutality, to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettoes established by the German invaders are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labour camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women and children. ... So far as the responsibility is concerned, I would certainly say it is the intention that all persons who can properly be held responsible for these crimes, whether they are the ringleaders or the actual perpetrators of the outrages, should be treated alike, and brought to book.


On December 13, 1942, the Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom Joseph Hertz ordained a day of mourning to mark the suffering of "the numberless victims of the Satanic carnage". The Archbishop of Canterbury, William Temple, wrote a letter to The Times to condemn "a horror beyond what imagination can grasp". These responses were mentioned in BBC Radio broadcasts to Europe in several languages that were made on December 17.[13]


In 1942, Szmul Zygielbojm, a Jewish-Polish socialist politician, leader of the General Jewish Labor Bund in Poland, and member of the National Council of the Polish government in exile, wrote in English a booklet titled Stop Them Now. German Mass Murder of Jews in Poland, with a foreword by Lord Wedgwood.[14]

Main article: Bermuda Conference


From April 19, 1943, through April 30, 1943, during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of April 19 to May 16, representatives of the governments of the United Kingdom and the United States held an international conference at Hamilton, Bermuda. They discussed the question of Jewish refugees who had been liberated by Allied forces and of those who still remained in Nazi-occupied Europe. The only agreement made was that the war against the Nazis must be won. The US did not raise its immigration quotas and the British prohibition on Jewish refugees seeking refuge in the British Mandate of Palestine remained in place until mid-1943. A week later, the American Zionist Committee for a Jewish Army ran an advertisement in The New York Times condemning the United States efforts at Bermuda as a mockery of past promises to the Jewish people and of Jewish suffering under German Nazi occupation.[15] Szmul Zygielbojm, a member of the Jewish advisory body to the Polish government-in-exile, committed suicide in protest.[7]

Allied intelligence on Auschwitz-Birkenau

Conspiratorial reportage about Auschwitz "camp of death" written by Natalia Zarembina in 1942.


From April 1942 to February 1943, British Intelligence intercepted and decoded radio messages sent by the German Order Police, which included daily prisoner returns and death tolls for ten concentration camps, including Auschwitz.[16][17]


The United States Office of Strategic Services (the predecessor of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and which had been established in 1941–1942 to coordinate intelligence and espionage activities in enemy territory) received reports about Auschwitz during 1942.[18][19]

Auschwitz prisoners reports

The Polish underground reports


At the beginning of Operation Reinhard, the principal source of intelligence for the Western Allies about the existence of Auschwitz was the Witold's Report, forwarded via the Polish resistance to the British government in London. It was written by the Polish Army Captain Witold Pilecki who spent a total of 945 days at the camp – the only known person to volunteer to be imprisoned at Auschwitz. He forwarded his report about the camp to Polish resistance headquarters in Warsaw through the underground network known as Związek Organizacji Wojskowej which he organized inside Auschwitz.[20] Pilecki hoped that either the Allies would drop weapons for the Armia Krajowa (AK) to organize an assault on the camp from the outside, or bring in the Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade troops to liberate it. A spectacular escape took place on June 20, 1942, when Kazimierz Piechowski (prisoner no. 918) organized a daring passing through the camp's gate along with three friends and co-conspirators, Stanisław Gustaw Jaster, Józef Lempart and Eugeniusz Bendera.[21] The escapees were dressed in stolen uniforms as members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände, fully armed and in an SS staff car. They drove out the main gate in a stolen Steyr 120 with a smuggled first report from Witold Pilecki to Polish resistance. The Germans never recaptured any of them.[22] By 1943 however, Pilecki realized that no rescue plans existed in the West. He escaped from the camp on the night of April 26–27, 1943.[23]


The first written accounts of Auschwitz concentration camp were published in 1940/41 in the Polish underground newspapers Polska żyje ("Poland lives") and Biuletyn Informacyjny.[24] From 1942 members of the Bureau of Information and Propaganda of the Warsaw Area Home Army also began to publish short booklets based on the experiences of escapees. The first was the fictional Auschwitz: Memories of a Prisoner written by Halina Krahelska and published in April 1942 in Warsaw.[25] The second publication was also produced in 1942 in the PPS WRN book Obóz śmierci ("Camp of Death") written by Natalia Zarembina.[26] In the summer of 1942 a book about Auschwitz titled W piekle ("In Hell") was written by the Polish writer, social activist and founder of Żegota, Zofia Kossak-Szczucka[27]


Polish reports about Auschwitz were also published in English versions. A booklet titled Zarembina was translated into English and published by the Polish Labor Group in New York in March 1944 with the title "Oswiecim, Camp of Death (Underground Report)" with a foreword by Florence Jaffray Harriman. In this report from 1942, the gassing of prisoners was described.[28]


Auschwitz site plans, originating from the Polish government, were passed on to the British Foreign Office on August 18, 1944.[29] Władysław Bartoszewski, himself a former Auschwitz inmate (camp number 4427), said in a speech: "The Polish resistance movement kept informing and alerting the free world to the situation. In the last quarter of 1942, thanks to the Polish emissary Jan Karski and his mission, and also by other means, the Governments of the United Kingdom and of the United States were well informed about what was going on in Auschwitz-Birkenau."[30]

The Jewish escapees reports


On April 7, 1944, two young Jewish inmates, Rudolf Vrba and Alfréd Wetzler, had escaped from the Auschwitz camp with detailed information about the camp's geography, the gas chambers, and the numbers being killed. The information, later called the Vrba-Wetzler report, is believed to have reached the Jewish community in Budapest by April 27. Roswell McClelland, the U.S. War Refugee Board representative in Switzerland, is known to have received a copy by mid-June, and sent it to the board's executive director on June 16, according to Raul Hilberg.[31] Information based on the report was broadcast on June 15 by the BBC and on June 20 by The New York Times. The full report was first published on November 25, 1944, by the U.S. War Refugee Board, the same day that the last 13 prisoners, all women, were killed in Auschwitz (the women were unmittelbar getötet—killed immediately—leaving open whether they were gassed or otherwise killed).[32]

2022. dec. 21. 17:04
 7/38 A kérdező kommentje:

Itt egy jó angol összefoglaló az eseményekről:


[link]

2022. dec. 27. 11:41
 8/38 kürasszír ***** válasza:
100%

Kedves kérdező!


A magyar kiugrást párját ritkítóan dilettáns módon készítették elő Horthyék.


Lényeges, hogy mind Románia, mind Finnország sikeresen kiugrott a II. világháborúból, pedig mindkettő területén jelentős német erők állomásoztak.


Romániában egyébként sokkal több német katona volt a sikeres román kiugráskor, mint Magyarország területén, a sikertelen magyar kiugráskor.

2022. dec. 27. 14:02
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 9/38 A kérdező kommentje:

"A magyar kiugrást párját ritkítóan dilettáns módon készítették elő Horthyék."


Churchill már akkor tudta hogy nem lesz adriai partraszállás, de a brit és amerikai diplomácia még mindig sikeresen elhitette ezt a naiv álmot a Horthyékkal. Horthy pedig bevette naivan a csalit, ebből a szempontból a végzetesen buta döntéseiért valóban felelős. (Wishful thinkingnek nevezik angolul Horthy magatartását, ami egy ilyen veszélyes korban, egy háború közepén a lehető legkártékonyabb gondolkodás)


Nem állomásoztak jelentős német erők Romániában. Ne feledjük el azt az aprócska tényt, hogy Romániával ellentétben, Németország Magyarország szomszédja volt, a náci birodalom országa Hegyeshalomnál kezdődött.

2022. dec. 27. 14:27
 10/38 kürasszír ***** válasza:
100%

# 9


De, állomásoztak jelentős német erők Romániában.


A román kiugráskor Románia területén volt a teljes 8. német hadsereg, a 6. német hadsereg részei, és jelentős más német erők is.


8. német hadsereg (8. Armee:):


10. gyaloghadosztály (10. Infanterie-Division)

76. gyaloghadosztály (76. Infanterie-Division)

79. gyaloghadosztály (79. Infanterie-Division)

376. gyaloghadosztály (376. Infanterie-Division)

153. gránátos hadosztály (153. Grenadier-Division)

8. vadászhadosztály (8. Jäger-division)

3. hegyi hadosztály (3. Gebirgs-Division)


A Ploiești olajmezőket további 25 000 fős német haderő biztosította, valamint több ezre fős német biztosító csapatok állomásoztak Bukarest, Brassó és Giurgiu területén is.

2022. dec. 27. 15:51
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